All about Carol - is this the girl?

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Siku
 
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All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Siku » 20 Jul 2012

What do we know about Carol?
- In 1965 film Slyvia, the eponymous Syvia West was played by Carroll Baker
- if Carroll Baker is the person who played Sylvia (West) in real life, maybe (MD's) Carol played Sylvia (North) in (Diane's) real life.
- Carol says "Don't forget me, I'm the girl that's playing this part"
- She's at the SNS audition in direct competition with Blonde Camilla
- In the seedy audition, Betty is also in competion with a Brunette (let's play it close, like we did with that other girl, the one with the dark hair). At the dinner party, Diane tells us she was beaten to the part of Syvia by a brunette. In the dream it takes the, almost divine, intervention of the mobsters to ensure a blonde gets the part.

And so, maybe, maybe, she is one of the real people Diane drew on to construct her fantasy Camilla. (I'm still toying with the idea that Camilla is imagined here). Like this:

MD Carol.jpg
MD Carol.jpg (18.79 KiB) Viewed 12096 times
+
MD DeRosa.jpg
MD DeRosa.jpg (9.7 KiB) Viewed 12096 times
=
MD Camilla.jpg
MD Camilla.jpg (11.46 KiB) Viewed 12096 times


So my proposal: Carol was a real person in Diane's life, and played Syvia North. They weren't close but Diane admired her and aspired to be her. In contructing her fantasy lover she amalgamated the distant and successful Carol with girl-next-door and one time lover DeRosa.
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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby kmkmiller » 20 Jul 2012

Super cool info on Carol. It's a scene I tend to gloss over ....but but but... :D



So who did Diane kill if Camilla didn't exist? That's always my question wit the Camilla didn't exist theories.

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Siku » 22 Jul 2012

Usually, in the Camilla-doesn't-exist theories, the hit doesn't exist either.

It has also been suggested that the victim is a lover, but not Camilla. Maybe the Lamp Lady, DeRosa, or another neighbour (no. 16?).

I can't see any reason Diane would put a hit on Carol! ...Still, if we look hard enough...

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Siku » 24 Jul 2012

More about Carol:

- In the screenplay of the pilot she is blonde
- In the film she is a brunette, with similar looks to Camilla
- She wears a pink top
- Linney introduces her with the remark "There's something over there you will kill!... Knock right out of the park". Cut to close up of Carol
- She is associated with the number 16 (room number in Park Lane hotel and mystery third appartment at Sierra Bonita)
- Adam, in his meeting with the Castigliane brothers, claims "there's six of the top actresses that want this thing". The implication is she's one of them.



Edit: This thread has moved away from Carol now. But I've just seen another similarity between Carol and Camilla that is so obvious I overlooked it. It's the moment they appear in Betty and Diane's stories:

Carol
The casting agents tell Betty that she’s not gonna get the part she auditioned for (the film isn’t gonna get made), but they invite her to play another role. It’s coming to this new role after being knocked back for the first that brings her to the set of the SNS where she first sees Carol.

Camilla
The casting agents tell Diane that she’s not gonna get the part she auditioned for (she isn’t gonna make it), but they invite her to play another role. It’s coming to this new role after being knocked back for the first that brings her to the set of the SNS where she first sees Camilla.


And just for the record, here's Carroll Baker who played Sylvia West in 'Sylvia'. She's blonde, like the Carol in the pilot script:

CarrollBaker.jpg

$(KGrHqN,!i8E-,Em9dZgBPnFpu3jv!~~60_57.JPG
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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby kmkmiller » 24 Jul 2012

The line is "A director who's a head above the rest. He's got a project you will kill, knock right out of the park." I interpret that as being Adam who is in Park Hotel.

It's ambiguous, that's for sure, and there is something about Carol, cause Lynch frames her with two blue suited back up singers, which i'm sure has been pointed out before, she's dressed in pink, a hidden secret inside a blue box.

And also Lynch doesn't just put in filler scenes, why does he have Adam go over to her, what is the meaning, and double meaning of the line "You're so cruel to me."

Just fanning this flame a little bit. :hmm:

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Siku » 25 Jul 2012

Thanks for clarifying that line, kmkmiller. I never made the connection between "knock right out of the park" and the Park Lane Hotel before.

I mentioned that line because, as others have noted, Lynch works dialogue ACROSS scene breaks. For example after Adam discovers the infidelity in his home, we cut to Betty saying "Let's hide it", and, although ostensibly referring to the money in Rita's purse, it's been suggested that this implies Betty conspired to hide whatever was going on in HER home life.

Similarly, here we have a reference to murder, followed immediately by Carol's face filling the screen. Could be unrelated.

I wondered about the "You're so cruel to me" too... Adam is stringing her along here - unless his decision to choose Blonde Camilla is made right at the moment he says "This is the girl". Doesn't read that way to me so I'd say he's bullshitting Carol when he's positive about her chances of landing the part. She does perform better than Blonde Camilla in this audition doesn't she?

Love the blue backing singers boxing Carol in.... Blonde Camilla doesn't get any does she? In the box -Carol... Out of the box - Blonde Camilla... Carol, when released from blue box = Blonde Camilla.

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby kmkmiller » 25 Jul 2012

Awesome. Blond Camilla (One other thing I observe is that blond Camilla acts like she doesn't even know why she's there) is the lie outside the blue box, the secret inside the blue box is the brunette doppelgänger of Camilla, yeah, she's got talent.

But I'm still not sure if that means we can conclude Carol is the parent (real) representation of the woman Diane had, or wanted to have killed. It may only just be one facet, and all Lynch is saying is that one of the secrets is the person Diane had killed was talented and had a relationship with Adam.


Also, thanks for the "let's hide it" overlapping dialog scene, I missed that, even after watching the darn thing like 8 times.

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Siku » 26 Jul 2012

What's in the blue box? After it's opened and we fall in we see Diane in place of Betty, Camilla in place of Rita, Sierra Bonita in place of Havenhurst, etc, etc.

Blonde Camilla is already a pretty mysterious and complex character, part Diane and part Camilla. In the dream she is an untalented bimbo who stole a part that should have been Betty's. And what's in the box? ...Carol - talented and deserving, Adam appears to know her, like her and want her for the part!

I'm also reluctant to conclude that Carol is the 'parent' or 'real' brunette in Diane's life: friend, lover, rival, murder victim, etc, depending on the scenario. To me that would just lead to a more convoluted interpretation with all the question marks hanging over Carol instead of brunette Camilla.

I don't trust Diane's version of events in the 'reality' section. All the cracks in Diane's fantasy world - Camilla, the party, the conspiracy, the hit man - are opening up and fragmenting her reality. So in place of one 'real' brunette , I'm seeing multiple images, seen through a cut diamond, Rita, Lamp Lady, Camilla, ..and Carol.
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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Siku » 26 Jul 2012

Talking of diamonds, Carol and Blonde Camilla both wear diamond earings, and pink tops with glittering stars, like Betty.

Credit to Bob for this image, that he posted in this thread:

http://vine.rottentomatoes.com/vine/sho ... p?t=515039

MD dresses.jpg

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby kmkmiller » 26 Jul 2012

That photo is very very helpful. Just about something completely different.

I don't trust Diane's version of events in the 'reality' section. All the cracks in Diane's fantasy world - Camilla, the party, the conspiracy, the hit man - are opening up and fragmenting her reality. So in place of one 'real' brunette , I'm seeing multiple images, seen through a cut diamond, Rita, Lamp Lady, Camilla, ..and Carol.


Yeah, totally agree to add Carol into the list of variations on the 'real' brunette.

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Bob » 26 Jul 2012

Siku wrote:So in place of one 'real' brunette , I'm seeing multiple images, seen through a cut diamond, Rita, Lamp Lady, Camilla, ..and Carol.

Let's not forget about Cynthia

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby kmkmiller » 26 Jul 2012

And Nikki Pelazza.

Who is that? Does that go too far?

(Just realized that could be mis-interpretted as being glib. Meant in good humor.) :angel:

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Siku » 30 Jul 2012

Personally I like Alan Shaw's interpretation of Nicki: A female Adam, in his dream incarnation as a persona of Diane, a principled and successful person who truly cares about the movies - great actors not movie stars. Also, as Linney's sidekick, Nicki shows us what Diane could have become if her Aunt Ruth had been around long enough help her, based on Linney as an avatar of Aunt Ruth.

So in that interpretation she's not one of the "Camilla Brunettes".

Cynthia on the other hand...
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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby Siku » 30 Jul 2012

She has pretty red lips:

MD Cynthia.jpg


In contrast to Carol's, in pink:

MD Carol.jpg
MD Carol.jpg (18.79 KiB) Viewed 11728 times



Bob wrote:Let's not forget about Cynthia


Good call Bob... So?

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Re: All about Carol - is this the girl?

Postby kmkmiller » 30 Jul 2012

i guess i'm not not a big fan of the Shaw interpretation. My opinion of Cynthia is based on my theory that Cookie is an angel (dressed in white) and room 16 (1+6 = 7, god is 7), lady of guadalupe on the wall, etc. Cynthia says you can stay with me, just a place to stay, Adam says no, get along little doggie, dog in hell, dog poop at havenhurst, etc. but that's a whole different way of looking at the movie i know. Basically, I think Cynthia is a minion of Satan trying to get Adam, safe in room 16 (the room they always walk by at Sierra Bonita but never get to), to stay in hell.

But with that in mind, I think Nikki is the same sort of Satan minion. Casting Agents and Directors are like Gods and Satans in Hollywood basically deciding where souls get to go if they do good or bad. And Nikki and Cynthia are their assistants. So in that respect I think -- based on my reading of the movie -- the fractalization of the "real" brunette is another layer. apologies, i'm just interjecting a whole different idea.

Basically, yeah, in the Shaw-verse Nikki could be she-Adam, Cynthia could be a brunette fractal. but in the dying dream, tibetan book of dead-verse, the importance of Cynthia and Nikki is how Satanish they look, almost humorously so. Any chance Lynch even referenced the Adam Sandler movie Little Nicky that came out a year prior to MULHOLLAND DRIVE? if the tibetan book of the dead interpretation has any merit, I wouldn't put it past him.

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