marksman wrote:It seems to me that she was making up the explanation of how she met Camilla, along with the story of her Aunt Ruth dying and leaving her money. And the story about her arriving from Canada appears to be a lie, just from her body language. And no one at the party seems to believe her, especially Coco, who has a mocking tone to her voice.

I think the question over exactly how much bullshit Diane is telling at the party is an interesting one worthy of discussion, and maybe I'll open a thread on that in the next day or two. Unless someone beats me to it.

blu wrote:

marksman wrote:It seems to me that she was making up the explanation of how she met Camilla, along with the story of her Aunt Ruth dying and leaving her money. And the story about her arriving from Canada appears to be a lie, just from her body language. And no one at the party seems to believe her, especially Coco, who has a mocking tone to her voice.

I think the question over exactly how much bullshit Diane is telling at the party is an interesting one worthy of discussion, and maybe I'll open a thread on that in the next day or two. Unless someone beats me to it.

Agreed. This would be an interesting thread. Even better ... marksman would you be willing to create the thread? That way you can lead with your ideas so that it could flow from that.

Cheers for that blu.

...how much bullshit Diane is telling at the party...

That will be an interesting thread. Until then, I want to posit this:

I think she's trying to BS herself as well as everyone else (acting is reacting).

Can you bullshit yourself while you're dreaming as well as you can while you're awake - as far as control of your thoughts go? Maybe the 'dream' part of the film has more truth to it than the 'reality' part simply because Diane loses some of her ability distort the facts when she's sleeping, but the facts are still being shown to us with dream qualities that have to be interpreted.

I split these posts off because marksman was, um, slow off the mark.

Feel free to pick up on the topic of Diane telling tales at the dinner party:

• Did she really win a jitterbug contest?
• Did her Aunt really leave her that money?
• Is Diane telling porkies about how she met Camilla?
• etc etc etc?

Take it away .........

Brit lingo that ... porkies from pork pies = telling lies.

These are the nine things that Diane shares with Coco.

1. I'm from Deep River, Ontario. A small town.

2. I always wanted to come here.

3. I won this jitterbug contest, that sort of led to acting. You know, wanting to act.

4. When my Aunt died ... anyway she left me some money. She worked here. (In the movies?) Yes.

5. (Well, how did you meet Camilla?). On The Sylvia North Story.

6. I wanted the lead so bad. Anyway, Camilla got the part.

7. The director (Bob Brooker?). Yes. He didn't think so much of me.

8. Anyway. That's how we became friends.

9. She helped me. Getting some parts in some of her films.

Now, there are no hard facts that support that Diane is telling any lies and (if anything) the events that precede the dinner party rather support rather than hurt things that Diane shares ex. looks like she won a Jitterbug contest and looks like she was working in bit parts on Camilla's films to me. So, what we tend not to believe perhaps tells us more about our own ideas than anything that Lynch shares. And Lynch shares precious little in this unrealistic bit of dialog. After all, to put it bluntly, what is the chance that someone in Hollywood would not ask the name of someone's aunt that worked in films? Particularly when that Aunt would be closer to Coco's generation? Zero chance?

I don't believe in Aunt Ruth working in the movie business ... believing it to be a un tRUTH. I think Diane is like thousands of other young women who have some sort of success back home and head for Hollywood seeking fame and glamour. Only when they get there they find it a cruel town in the toughest industry in the world. I wouldn't put it past Diane to have selected some dead actress who had no kids of her own to claim her as an aunt in an attempt to get an 'in' to auditions, based on the woman's fame. After all, you say you're some dead Aunt's niece, who going to know? But, that's just a whim.

My guess is that Diane is not making enough money to support a life in Hollywood on bit or extra parts. Camilla is the blazing light sucking energy from all that is around her and while Diane wishes she was in a primary relationship with Camilla, but that's only a pipe dream.

The rest seems pretty believable to me.

4. When my Aunt died ... anyway she left me some money. She worked here. (In the movies?) Yes.

The part I have a problem with is "She worked here. (In the movies?) Yes."

The very first time I heard this line, I thought that Diane meant that her aunt worked at this house, as a maid. When Diane said "She worked here.", Coco offered up "In the movies?" and Diane just decided to say 'yes'. I've always wondered if Diane 'inherited' the job as maid of this household, from her aunt, and that is how she met Camilla. They became friends and, once Diane let Camilla know she was interested in acting, Camilla got her some small parts. Diane did not arrive at that party via a limo...she was already there because she works there.

Probably not the answer you are looking for -

There is no way to figure out a reality for Diane Selwyn outside of what is shown in the final 20 minutes of the movie. She 'wakes up,' her story is told and she dies. There's really no mysteries about it. That's the reality that was built for her by the movie. Speculation outside of it will lead to running in circles.

But...this doesn't mean the questions you're asking cannot be investigated. The context just needs to be changed a bit. Diane's reality is a corollary of another reality (a 'real' reality), in which the 'lead' told lies about an aunt and money, etc etc.

Its the same deal with questions regarding the hollywood power struggle and Adam Kesher. These elements have very little or no meaning in relationship to Diane's on-screen story. However when you look at the movie as a whole, there are hints scattered througout both levels of the story that can be deciphered to describe not only the life story of the protagonist, but what is going on with her after death.

I'll have a look properly at these posts shortly, but for now.





(And an opportunity to see what the off-topic tags look like)

Lol! Me, too!

PS - I'm a dudette. :)

And back to the topic:

I believe that the party scene was a dream

I believe it is a dream as well...a daydream. Wishful thinking, in a way (just like the first 2 hours). It's like Diane is trying to either justify actions she has taken or tell herself how she's gotten to her current situation. And she has to lie to accomplish this.

vicster111 wrote:PS - I'm a dudette. :)

Well firstly, my humblest apologies.

Although I do confess that I sometimes use 'dude' as a catch-all term when addressing both sexes. People I'm close to anyway.

And back to the topic:

I believe that the party scene was a dream

I believe it is a dream as well...a daydream. Wishful thinking, in a way (just like the first 2 hours). It's like Diane is trying to either justify actions she has taken or tell herself how she's gotten to her current situation. And she has to lie to accomplish this.

The dinner party scene is a dream in what sense exactly? To what extent? Diane has completely fabricated it in her mind? Or that the scene is based in reality but perhaps coded, as one might argue much of the rest of the film, so that it gives away some information about her life that can be decoded with the right key(s)? Without the information to dig out, and without the exercise in comparing and contrasting what might loosely be termed as 'dream' and 'reality' to eek out Diane Selwyn's real story, how do we go about putting the MD jigsaw together?

btw, good job on the avatars. Much easier to tell you apart at a glance now

dk23 wrote:Probably not the answer you are looking for -

There is no way to figure out a reality for Diane Selwyn outside of what is shown in the final 20 minutes of the movie. She 'wakes up,' her story is told and she dies. There's really no mysteries about it. That's the reality that was built for her by the movie. Speculation outside of it will lead to running in circles.

But...this doesn't mean the questions you're asking cannot be investigated. The context just needs to be changed a bit. Diane's reality is a corollary of another reality (a 'real' reality), in which the 'lead' told lies about an aunt and money, etc etc.

Its the same deal with questions regarding the hollywood power struggle and Adam Kesher. These elements have very little or no meaning in relationship to Diane's on-screen story. However when you look at the movie as a whole, there are hints scattered througout both levels of the story that can be deciphered to describe not only the life story of the protagonist, but what is going on with her after death.

Cryptic.

On the one hand you say:

There is no way to figure out a reality for Diane Selwyn outside of what is shown in the final 20 minutes of the movie.

And on the other you say:

However when you look at the movie as a whole, there are hints scattered througout both levels of the story that can be deciphered to describe not only the life story of the protagonist, but what is going on with her after death.

I sense I am missing a piece of your puzzle, dk.

---

Cowboy, Imma come back to your post later. 3 posts on the trot seems somewhat vulgar.

Thank you for explaining the 'porkies' element of my post though ..

To what extent? Diane has completely fabricated it in her mind? Or that the scene is based in reality but perhaps coded...

Well, it's really hard to tell if the 'reality part' is completely BS or if there is some truth/reality hidden in it. I think it is at this point where we have to look at the 'dream part' of the film to figure it out. Which is why I was wondering earlier if it is possible to BS yourself while you're sleeping as well as you can while you're awake. I don't think you can (isn't your subconscious in control, more so, when you sleep?) which is why I believe that there may be more truth/reality in the first part of the film than there is in the second part.

vicster111 wrote:

4. When my Aunt died ... anyway she left me some money. She worked here. (In the movies?) Yes.

The part I have a problem with is "She worked here. (In the movies?) Yes."

The very first time I heard this line, I thought that Diane meant that her aunt worked at this house, as a maid...

I want to elaborate on this more...I'm having my morning coffee and things tend to come to me when I'm having my morning coffee. Lol!

Instead of using the term 'maid', I think the term 'servant' or even better, 'household assistant', is more appropriate to what I was thinking. Lots of stars have people in their homes who help them with their day-to-day household activities. Just check out a few reality 'star' shows and you'll see them. I think that this may be the job (inherited from her aunt) that Diane has and it is how Diane and Camilla met.

In the first part of the film we see Aunt Ruth leaving and Betty coming. This represents Aunt Ruth's death and Diane taking over her position.

Betty goes to an audition that her aunt set up for her. This represents the fact that the job she now holds came to her via her aunt.

Rita has lost her memory and Betty is more than happy to take care of her. This represents what Diane does for Camilla in real-life. She takes care of Camilla...and Adam...and she sees Camilla as someone who is kinda lacking in the 'smart' department and needs caring for. She may even start to resent her for being so 'needy' and begin to think that she would do a much better job at acting than Camilla. She may even begin to think that she would also serve better as Adam's spouse than Camilla.

As Adam's mother, maybe Coco saw these changes in attitude in Diane and warned Camilla that if there was trouble to get rid of it. This remark was overheard by Diane.

Just some thoughts that I wanted to throw out there...

For those of you who are not familiar with my posts on the IMDb board, I like to post as I come up with ideas. So, you'll see my thought process in action. Lol!

Let me keep going...

The blue key and the box. The blue box represents Camilla and Adam's house and the blue key is the key to their home.

Diane has started to resent Camilla for being so 'needy', but at the same time, she has grown to depend on caring for Camilla. Caring for Camilla has become her whole world...her new drug. She makes 'advances' to Camilla (because she thinks she's in love with her - confusing love with dependency) and these advances begin to make Camilla uneasy. Eventually it gets to the point where Diane is asked not to come back (Camilla took Coco's advice) and to turn in her key.

The Woman in #12 is Diane's replacement (switching apartments) as assistant. Woman in #12's appearance at Diane's door to get her 'stuff' really represents the 'Woman in #12' getting the key from Diane.

Maybe the 'blackmail' we hear about during the audition is what Diane hires Joe to assist her with. Blackmailing Camilla into giving Diane her job back. It would serve, if it worked, to get Diane the key back.

About the jitterbug contest she says she won: I believe the jitterbug contest is a lie. Why? Because when she visualizes herself winning this contest, at the beginning of the film (and, notice she's not asleep yet), she is alone. There's no dance partner sharing the spotlight with her.

Does Irene and her companion represent 'lies and deceit'? If so, look who shares that spotlight with her and what that would mean. It's a lie, along with 'Betty'. Who brings Betty out of LAX?

Do the 'two detectives' looking for Diane represent the lies and deceit catching up to her? And finally causing her demise? She couldn't hide from them or keep them away from her...they just shrunk and went under the door.

*********

Keeping in mind Irene and her companion representing 'lies and deceit', notice how Irene is wearing purple during that jitterbug fantasy. Does this mean that the color purple represents these as well? Back at LAX, not only did these two escort 'Betty' out of the airport, but we saw an older lady dressed in all purple. And does this maybe tell us that Diane did not arrive in Hollywood via an airplane?

And purple is a combination of red and blue.

What is Betty wearing? A pink (red) sweater over a blue top. Betty is shrouded in lies and deceit.