I guess it is generally assumed on this forum that the movie consists of a dream sequence and a fantasy sequence. I wonder if anybody has any thoughts about the location within the last two scenes: the hitman and Diane at Winkie's and when Diane commits suicide. When you take the dream-fantasy equence in consideration, you would assume that the first one plays within Diane's fantasy, while the latter is reality. I have my own thoughts about it, but I would like to hear from others how they view these scenes.

Well exactly as you say Erniesam. Taking a dream/fantasy/reality construction, Diane engaging the hitman is fantsay, Diane's suicide is reality, albeit a riddled with hallucination. If you have any alternative thoughts please share them!

On the point of 'reality' being psychotically hallucinatory to the point of being completely unreal, we might ask how do we differentiate that from the 'fantasy' elements? I was just thinking that we might observe that Diane is out of control of 'reality' but in control of her fantasies. So the fantasies provide an escape from her psychosis.

Siku wrote:Diane engaging the hitman is fantasy.

Siku wrote:Taking a dream/fantasy/reality construction, Diane engaging the hitman is fantasay.

I suppose, if you don't subscribe to dream/fantasy/reality, then everything after Diane wakes up is real, hitman included.

But, Bob, I'm curious. Don't you think that at least SOME of the waking portion is fantasy?

Aside: I think I may have to start calling it dream/fantasy/psychosis. Because NONE of it is reality, is it? It all points to an underlying reality, but I don't think anything we see is a 100% objective presentation of reality. (If I had to pick something it would be the neighbour calling).

Distortion or dramatization of real events would be my preferred view. But I am not totally closed to the two-dream interpretation as described here and here. It would tie in nicely with the Silencio "fool-me-twice" logic (Lynch is the MC). My only problem is, that we would end up with two unexplained dreams.

Siku wrote:

Siku wrote:Aside: I think I may have to start calling it dream/fantasy/psychosis. Because NONE of it is reality, is it? It all points to an underlying reality, but I don't think anything we see is a 100% objective presentation of reality. (If I had to pick something it would be the neighbour calling).

I can't help but relate this to Lynch's adoration of Billy Wilder's masterpiece "Sunset Blvd." (which is obviously a very appropriate reference to bring up regarding MD).

I remember reading an interview with Lynch where he talks about that movie and what intrigues him about it, and it has to do with the delusion of Gloria Swanson's character Norma Desmond and he says how people like her really exist. People who live in their own fantasy world and do not realize it, and so they no longer live in the real world, they live in la-la land.

It seems to me that all of Lynch's protagonists are these same type of people. Fred Madison from Lost Highway for example. Lynch says how he was inspired by the O.J. Simpson trial while writing that film. He explains how he saw a picture of him after the murder, golfing, and he wondered how a man who just murdered his wife can go on living life normally as if nothing happened. P.S. when I said golfing, did Adam Kesher's golf club spring to mind? Haha!

So if that were true, if Lynch is telling us stories about delusional people with distorted views of reality, then basically they're like Sunset Blvd if the film was told through the distorted point-of-view of Norma Desmond as opposed to the objective point-of-view of Joe.

And something random that just crossed my mind is how interesting it is that Sunset Blvd is narrated by the main character AFTER he is killed... He's narrating from the dead.
I have VERY often wondered-- and I know many others have too---that what if MD's story is being told from the afterlife. It's possible Diane is dead the entire film and we're seeing her journey (trials and tribulations?) through the afterlife. I do really adore the idea that the afterlife is shaped by our own experiences, and we're forced to face our own inner demons in a nightmareish/dream-like sort of way before we can "cross over." To me that actually seems like a very realistic concept--but I have NO IDEA why I'm bringing it up here and now.... I have such a hard time staying focused when discussing Lynch :P But one more thing: all of this I've been saying also brings me to recall a quote Lynch likes to bring up: "we are like the spider. We weave our lives and the move along in it. We are like the dreamer who dreams, and then lives in the dream."

outofthewoods wrote:And something random that just crossed my mind is how interesting it is that Sunset Blvd is narrated by the main character AFTER he is killed... He's narrating from the dead.
I have VERY often wondered-- and I know many others have too---that what if MD's story is being told from the afterlife. It's possible Diane is dead the entire film and we're seeing her journey (trials and tribulations?) through the afterlife. I do really adore the idea that the afterlife is shaped by our own experiences, and we're forced to face our own inner demons in a nightmareish/dream-like sort of way before we can "cross over." To me that actually seems like a very realistic concept--but I have NO IDEA why I'm bringing it up here and now....

The thing about this moving-through-Purgatory/Limbo idea that I like a lot is it makes sense out of the "You'll see me Once more if you do right, Twice if you do bad." "Hey Pretty Lady, time to wake up,"; the cowboy gives her another afterlife-chance to do right. Being at the dream/afterlife/whatever party and deciding once again to order the hit? She did bad and the Cowboy's seen moseyin' on.

outofthewoods wrote:I have such a hard time staying focused when discussing Lynch :P Also, this concept also brings me to recall a quote Lynch likes to bring up: "we are like the spider. We weave our lives and the move along in it. We are like the dreamer who dreams, and then lives in the dream."

Odd, I was just thinking of spiders earlier today. The specific thing about them that I was thinking about: they're not "immune" to their web. Their web is sticky, that's what it's for. They just know which parts of it are safe to walk on.

KyleOrKyla wrote:The thing about this moving-through-Purgatory/Limbo idea that I like a lot is it makes sense out of the "You'll see me Once more if you do right, Twice if you do bad." "Hey Pretty Lady, time to wake up,"; the cowboy gives her another afterlife-chance to do right. Being at the dream/afterlife/whatever party and deciding once again to order the hit? She did bad and the Cowboy's seen moseyin' on.

I don't think it's about "doing right" on this second time around. It's not about right and wrong, or as the saying goes, there's no black and white, everything is gray. Especially when it comes to crimes of passion, b/c it is essentially fueled by love, so could that act be inherently evil? I don't think so.... despite that act being murder. I don't think Diane is evil, she was being tortured by a flurry of many different, and very strong emotions and could not handle it and reacted in the only way she knew how. I also believe she had a traumatic and troubled past (i will pick up on this later*).

I was saying in another thread how Diane swaps apartments b/c she is hiding--which is a form of escape. She eventually commits suicide inside this swapped apartment, and suicide is ultimately a permanent escape. And you can't blame her for making that decision (gray area). She's being tormented by so many things... the guilt of murdering Camilla, the detectives looking for her, etc.etc. and the unbearable emotions she must be feeling b/c of it all. I bring all of this up, b/c if the entire film is a death dream that begins after suicide, it's interesting that it all begins with Camilla ESCAPING death--making Diane's wish of escaping her dark, irreparable reality come true. In other words, her escape through suicide actually works... at first... giving her some peace for a little while after her suicide. But of course, actions have consequences. All of the "bad stuff" is always nearby, showing itself, until eventually it all comes crashing down, eventually coming face to face with her crimes and her suffering, thus the suicide we see at the end is actually her having to relive it, b/c in death she cannot find the peace she needs until she learns to accept the truth and deal with the consequences.


*Ok I said I would elaborate on why I said Diane may have had a traumatic past (and no, i'm not about to mention the Cenci painting if that's what you were thinking :p). It all has to do with that famous "audition" scene. I think the scenario playing out in the script she auditions for is a reflection of her real-life, childhood experiences (hence why her performance is so incredible and realistic), which in turn i believe is a reflection of Laura Palmer (she is part of Lynch's "web"). Remember in the audition she says her dad will KILL him if he found out about them. While she is holding a knife, with intent to kill a grown man, apparently while reading the lines for the part of a young girl ("my dad is right upstairs i can call him, I'm his little girl"). How can this young girl be SO CORRUPT? She's having sex with her dad's best friend and saying things you'd never expect from a young girl. Laura Palmer was the same way. She had a double life she lived at night filled with crime. And all of this, we find out, is not b/c she's simply a "bad girl" but b/c her mind and soul had been corrupted by her incestuous father. So I believe Diane was also in an incestuous relationship with her father and it corrupted her mind. I think she did form a relationship with "dad's best friend" and daddy killed him, and that is the experience that contributes to her decision to put a hit on Camilla. What I mean by that is--- I said earlier that Diane was just dealing with things the only way she knew how, so if murder was something she experienced in her past, then it makes sense for her to consider murder now to solve her issues in her deranged state.

Something else... if we pretend the above is true, it's really cool how Lynch gives us clues about the characters' past to help explain why they make future decisions.

P.S. and even though I said I wasn't going to mention the Cenci painting, it does only support my idea even more so that's nice. :)

outofthewoods wrote:*Ok I said I would elaborate on why I said Diane may have had a traumatic past (and no, i'm not about to mention the Cenci painting if that's what you were thinking :p). It all has to do with that famous "audition" scene. I think the scenario playing out in the script she auditions for is a reflection of her real-life, childhood experiences (hence why her performance is so incredible and realistic), which in turn i believe is a reflection of Laura Palmer (she is part of Lynch's "web"). Remember in the audition she says her dad will KILL him if he found out about them. While she is holding a knife, with intent to kill a grown man, apparently while reading the lines for the part of a young girl ("my dad is right upstairs i can call him, I'm his little girl"). How can this young girl be SO CORRUPT? She's having sex with her dad's best friend and saying things you'd never expect from a young girl. Laura Palmer was the same way. She had a double life she lived at night filled with crime. And all of this, we find out, is not b/c she's simply a "bad girl" but b/c her mind and soul had been corrupted by her incestuous father. So I believe Diane was also in an incestuous relationship with her father and it corrupted her mind. I think she did form a relationship with "dad's best friend" and daddy killed him, and that is the experience that contributes to her decision to put a hit on Camilla. What I mean by that is--- I said earlier that Diane was just dealing with things the only way she knew how, so if murder was something she experienced in her past, then it makes sense for her to consider murder now to solve her issues in her deranged state.

Something else... if we pretend the above is true, it's really cool how Lynch gives us clues about the characters' past to help explain why they make future decisions.

P.S. and even though I said I wasn't going to mention the Cenci painting, it does only support my idea even more so that's nice. :)

And to go further....

Two things.

1) Notice how both Betty and Diane have an Aunt Ruth but we never hear them talk about their parents or grandparents (despite the creepy old couple).... except..... when Betty reads the script she auditions for. "My parents are right UPSTAIRS (capitalized so you consider the afterlife theory :P) I can CALL them (phones? :O). Betty only communicates with Aunt Ruth via phone. One of Lynch's clues is "where is Ruth?" Diane's Aunt Ruth is dead. :O

2) When you consider all the above I said about Diane's father being incestuous, and the stuff in the script is based on her real life, and how that experience may have added to the influence of her decision to kill Camilla. Now consider when Betty reads the so-important script to the so-called "Rita" (Rita isn't my name...). Betty holds a knife up. Betty yells @ "not-Rita" "I'LL KILL YOU! And then I cry, cry, cry..." (llorandoooo). Oh the connections. Oh the sweet, beautiful, freaky connections!

Hi Siku,

It seems you and I are much on the same page as this movie goes. I too place much emphasis on the dream/fantasy/reality structure, albeit I do not consider it to be as fluent as it sounds. It's been a while that I've been on this forum. Right now I'm in a discussion concerning Memento, which I also find to be frustrating to get my head around. But I enjoy the conversations and the exchange of surprising thoughts.

In this post I will try to concentrate solely on the "place" where crucial scenes take place. I find it hard not to get sidetracked by little details, so I'll do my best. Like you Siku, I adhere to the notion that the movie is structured as dream and fantasy, but the reality part I find not as easy to place. To me it seems obvious that at least the following three scenes take place in reality:
1. Diane going to sleep
2. Her former roommate demanding some stuff back
3. The masturbation scene

So, what about Diane's suicide? Is this reality or is it still part of her fantasy? This I find not so easy to answer. Let me start by setting out my overall reading of the movie: I consider the movie to be the last 24 hours of a depressed an deterioting Diane Selwyn. So, I do see the movie as a continual unity. I also see the story as a journey into Diane's mind. Literally! When the Cowboy leaves Diane and the audience is stuck in Diane's mind literally. The audience was already, of course, but when the Cowboy leaves we see Diane surrounded by personas from her fantasy (the hitman, Betty the waitress and Dan by the counter). The departure of the Cowboy signals the ultimate retreat of Diane it herself (she has done wrong, because she failed or refused to recognize reality and lost herself in her fantasy again). So the scene at Winkie's with the hitman seems to me to be playing inside Diane's head. Her fantasy to be exact.

So, what about the suicide? Are we to believe that after Diane lost herself in her fantasy she suddenly snaps out of it and is back in reality? I don't find that very convincing. I believe that after the scene in Winkie's Diane is still in her own mind with one major difference: she isn't surrounded by her fantasy annymore, but she is in her own consiousness. In this scene we don't see her fantasy personas anymore, but the image of her grand parents: the real image which she has respressed for so long. So they are no longer fantasy, but a real representation of how Diane has experienced them: her grandparents who have abused her. What about the suicide? Well, technically we are inside Diane's mind, so we do not see the suicide actually take place. The point is: since we are in her consciousness, which only records events as they truly are or at least how Diane actually experienced them, the suicide MUST have been taken place. Just like in Club Silencio where every recording was fake, because this was the heart of Diane's fantasy. The recordings in this place, in her consciousness are REAL! This to me seems like an eloquent take on this scene. Above all, it is uniquely cinematic in that in no other medium could this be expressed without severely altering the meaning or perception of it.

The characters that Diane concocted in her fantasy are blending into one: herself, while the blue haired lady finally says: "Silencio!." The performance is over and her work is done. Diane has finally been releaved of the noise in her head and her own performance is no more needed. It has taken it's run.

Of course, there's much more to say about it, but this is the abreviated version of my take on the last two scenes.