Xav's theory is that the real hit took place in apartment 17. You should read his theory, its very complete and elegant.

But why, folks, does it matter if it's 16 or 17. Where is this going?

A lot of mileage is made out of this moment when Rita and Betty walk past 16 on their was to 17, and there's a bird of paradise flower. But it's over in seconds and nothing really happens and it's not even certain that it's no. 16.

then I amend. I, for one, simply have no idea what Xav is talking about because nothing in the movie is presented to show what Xav is talking about.

Yes, a lot is made of the apt they pass on the way to 17, and if we simply want to decide not enough information is presented about it for any definitive conclusions can be made about it, then that is fine. Because the fact is, the apt could be number 13 for all we know.

There's no harm in linking Cookie to LJ DeRosa, but Cookie's entire dialog with Adam shows he has a different purpose than LJ. The fact that they are both hispanic and warn of folks trying to find Adam or Diane is but 2 of 10 or 20 other things that make them who they are.

For instance one has a black undershirt, and a white shirt draped over it. The other has a white, hey, a very clean white shirt.

So let's compare the whole picture, not just bits and pieces.

Also, I was just thinking about Laura Dern's monolog about her lamp in INLAND EMPIRE. how the shade was all floral and beautiful but it was then painted red. she kept that darn lamp wherever she went no matter what.

LJ needs to go back and get her own lamp.

kmkmiller wrote:then I amend. I, for one, simply have no idea what Xav is talking about because nothing in the movie is presented to show what Xav is talking about.

Why did David Lynch make this "pov-shot"?

Xav, let's not waste time. You tell us, why did Lynch make that POV shot?

You seem to be getting agitated, kmk, and I'm not quite sure why.

The post that Xav made that you commented that you have no idea what he's talking about actually draws together two connections that are considered quite important by some.

1. The Wonderland Murders. Some pretty solid connections have been drawn over the years.

2. The nodding Bird of Paradise. A viewing of Vertigo is in order to understand the significance of that.

There are pieces of MD that, if not quite missing, then helpful to understand and fill in blanks from knowledge of other films. MD is an incredibly dense piece of work in terms of its connections and references to other films. It's mind boggling how much David built into it in that respect. We are still uncovering these connections and references over a decade later, so I wouldn't write off someone trying to draw your attention to something in that respect, ever.

I think that this question, from Siku, is critical to the discussion, and so I will shortly split some posts off in a new thread. Because, I, for one, need a reminder about the origins of the 16 vs 17 argument, and whether it actually matters at all in the grand scheme of things.

But why, folks, does it matter if it's 16 or 17. Where is this going?

Cheers

blu

Thanks Blu, but I'm a classical theorist, with Alan all the way... until the apartments and the lamp lady.

But Xav, do tell - what's the POV all about?

16 vs 17 is probably more significant in the context of the "classical" theory than any other it seems to me. It's been argued about for many many years, so yeah ... why does it matter?

Poking a bit here, admittedly.

Spell it out for any random new people reading the thread. Is it important?

2. The nodding Bird of Paradise. A viewing of Vertigo is in order to understand the significance of that.

now i can see better where that's going, but let's be fair, gents. Xav did not mention Vertigo in his post, so if confusion ensued, it appears forgivable. I can definitely apologize about my tone if that is in order.

But will also note...

Xav has now posted a shot from the movie and .... and unfortunately.. [spoiler]o[/spoiler]. What's important about that observation is not that it might be construed as rudeness , what's important is that it's a true statement , with or without the rudeness.

Diane lives in no. 16... the evidence:





Diane lives in no. 17... the evidence:

kmkmiller wrote:

2. The nodding Bird of Paradise. A viewing of Vertigo is in order to understand the significance of that.

now i can see better where that's going, but let's be fair, gents. Xav did not mention Vertigo in his post, so if confusion ensued, it appears forgivable. I can definitely apologize about my tone if that is in order.

But will also note...

Xav has now posted a shot from the movie and .... and unfortunately.. [spoiler]o[/spoiler]. What's important about that observation is not that it might be construed as rudeness , what's important is that it's a true statement , with or without the rudeness.

Sometimes a little bit of conflict and challenge is not necessarily a bad thing in trying to break through solving something, but equally we don't want to allow frustrations to cloud our minds.

I don't think you owe anyone an apology necessarily, but lets play nice.

Also, we're discussing MD. Expect people to tease and be playful a little bit, since really that's why we're here in the first place. Things might be implied and not necessarily laid out on a plate.

As for the image that Xav posted, I don't have the time or the means to check right now (and it's not for me to speak for him), but the point I wondered if he was making about it being a POV shot was where you might be stood to see that precise perspective.

But I could be wrong ...

Diane lives in no. 16... the evidence:
The interior set decoration is completely different. It's not just the dead plant, the shelf by the door is gone. Other shelves are gone, a vase is missing.


Diane lives in no. 17... the evidence:
The interior structure is the same. There are light fixtures on both sides of her kitchen.

The exterior matches the interior, by that I mean there are three kitchen windows, a side window and then a window over around front, and they all fairly well correspond to the interior.

Apt 16 has a screen enclosure outside the front door. The screen is dirty. When you open the front door of Diane's apt., you have a clear view of the bushes outside 17. And a view of the wooden arch that is only duplicated at apt 17. Basically in order to create that shot from inside 16 (if the screen enclosed door is 16), you'd have to rebuild the entry way. (this was the clincher for me, btw. and it makes sense the interiors set decoration might be different if the set had to be recreated to shoot the final scenes of the movie a year later, after the pilot was cancelled. real structural items, like the entry way, and window placement would not change, obviously.)

There is a bird of paradise outside in view, so I considered that is the same BoP that shows up outside 16, but gosh darn it if you watch the scene again, there's BoP flowers all over the courtyard. There's noreason why there wouldn't also be a BoP outside 17.

And I guess it might be too obvious, but LJ actually says she moved from 12 into 17. "She's in 17." Just taken at face value. It's evidence.


Now where is this going? Why does it matter that Diane be living 17?
I think people already know where I'm going with it, but if not... The number 16 was important enough for Lynch to draw it himself on the door at the Park Hotel. It is important because the numbers add up to 7. (not making that up, Geno Silva says so on the MD website). And the number 7 is God's divine number. So it would undercut the idea that Diane did a bad thing if she lived in a room marked 16.

Ah I see the point Xav is trying to make with the POV shot now. And that's just a pet peeve on my part. If Xav were to post the picture and say "this POV shot is from apt 16, not 17!" then happy discussion does seem to blossom, even though one may still disagree.

Cause I've watched the scene a couple times just now and it looks like just a continuation of the tracking shot that came before it (that clearly began as POV from apt 17).

Here is an example of Lynch using POV in Inland Empire.



Lynch will frame the shot and hang on the image for a few extra beats to accentuate the moment.

That doesn't happen when LJ walks back to her number 12 apartment. So I'm not as inclined to think it means anything.

"Don't play dumb, Billy"

Kmkmiller did read my theory, because he responded to it some time ago, so he should have knowledge about the main idea and the connection with Hitchcock's Vertigo, in particular the flowers and other stuff that I mentioned. Either he forgot about it, or he is playing the "dumb Billy".

by kmkmiller » 15 Jul 2012
Good stuff. Just one thing, it's Mr. Roque with a Q, not a G.

"So called reality scenes.
This main idea consists of a selection of a few "so called reality scenes", of which, I think, the rotten corpse is part of. In other words, Lynch constructed the dreamscape in such way that it gives the impression that Diane's subconsciousness 'directs' her dreaming mind gradually into her most oppressed awful memory: facing the dreadful dead body of her former lover. To me, this is still one of the scariest scenes ever made in movie's history, even after seeing it many times.

Now, let's slide into Dale Cooper's shoes and try to gather as much information as is possible from Diane's dream, in the proximity of that breathtaking event, and focus on the discovery of that decomposing corpse in apartment #17 of Sierra Bonita's.




This collage of pictures shows a vast amount of information that can help to orientate in the story that Lynch is telling by means of his cinematic language, in which a dream is not just a random sequence of images, but a meticulously created world that shows delicate relations with the 'so called reality scenes'.

Picture (1) shows Rita and Betty on their way to apartment #17. On the left, near Rita's right shoulder, a bird of paradise starts nodding. This happens after Rita's eyes focus (11) on her left side, where the apartment with the screen-door that is covering the front-door and where the porch-light is burning (8). This bird of paradise (10) points at the same direction as Rita's eyes.
Notice that the light in the porch of apartment #17 emits no light (2). Inside #17 the dead plant near the front-door and all kinds of other decoration and furniture helps to distinguish this apartment from the apartment in which Diane wakes up, later in the movie.
As Betty and Rita slowly approach the bedroom in #17, the woman in #12 leaves her apartment and sets foot toward #17. Notice that also her porch-light (4) is burning. Is Lynch suggesting that those porch-lights represent the status of the apartments: "occupied" or "not occupied" ?

At the very moment that Betty and Rita are confronted by "the face that would no one ever would like to see outside of a dream", the woman of #12 is knocking on the door. Betty seems without fear, as the ultimate representation of pure innocence she remains unable to see "darkness" and silences Rita. The knocking stops and the woman of #12 returns to her apartment (5). As she approaches the mid path in the courtyard she turns her head and looks back into the direction of apartment #17 (6). Did she hear something?
She continues her way back to #12 and a seconds later her left shoulder nears the bird of paradise (7). Her eyes look down to the ground. An instance later the "pov shot" scene seem to give the impression of someone spying out of the adjacent apartment. The same apartment pointed at by the bird of paradise. The same apartment, that Rita's eyes set focus on when she and Betty passed by on their way to #17.

[Is this very "pov shot" another real life oppressed memory? Was it Diane's point of view when Joe was executing his plan in #17, similar to Ed's fate? Did the noise alarm woman in #12, similar to the vacuum cleaner guy? Was Diane hiding/residing in the adjacent apartment, similar to the fat lady next to Ed's office, and similar to Adam, who was hiding in room #16 of the Park? - I like to think so.]

Notice that Rita's wears black over red and Betty grey over blue, whereas the woman of #12 wears an amalgam of grey over black. Picture (2) shows Rita in all black appearance as she faces the place of death.

Time management.

It took Betty and Rita about 40 seconds to walk from #12 to #17. Woman in #12 leaves her apartment and starts knocking on the door of #17 about 50 seconds later. The knocking continues for approximately 7 seconds, 14 seconds later she turns her head to have another look at #17. Another 18 seconds later the "pov shot" shows the woman of #12 passing by. A normal walking speed is circa 1.5 m/s. So, the distance between #12 and #17 is about 60 meters. It is very unlikely that 18 seconds later in time and between 18 and 27 meters further in distance this woman in #12 is still in front of #17.


Back to the narrative, Lynch seemed to have sculptured a story in which in a dreaming protagonist brings alive her deceased beloved one. Yet, an invisible force (subconsciousness) drove their destiny to an impossible multiple paradox: alive and dead, criminal and victim. The victim's name was not Diane Selwyn; this was the criminal's name, the name of the dreamer herself. The victim did not survive an assault nor did she survive the coincided car-accident. The painful truth lies in apartment #17. This conflict between dream (fantasy) and real (the rotten corpse) seem to trigger the downfall of the dream; it literally shakes the dreamer as Betty and Rita exit apartment #17.

A variation to an old tale about Eurydice and Orpheus was brought to light again and its outcome was accordingly. The dead remain where they are, unreachable for the living, even in a dream.

How much time does it take for a plant to get as dead as the one in picture (3) ? How much time does it take for a dead body to decompose into a state as the rotten corpse in #17?
Is it about the same amount of time the woman of #12 mentioned?

"Come on, Diane, it's been three weeks."



PS. Before someone can knock on a door that is covered by a screen-door, one needs to open that screen-door of course. The pivots of that screen-door are at the left. Is it unlikely to assume that the woman of #12 clinched/clamped that screen-door, which makes that screen-door out of focus when Diane opens her front-door?

Very thorough Xav, thanks.

A couple of things:

1. We see an 'Aunt Ruth' shortly before your picture 1, IIRC. Any relevance?
2. Porch lights - could indicate alive vs. dead as much as occupied vs. unoccupied
3. Time management. Sounds convincing in as far as POV is no. 16 not no.17.
4. Can you detail what discrepancies/similarities you see between the interior 17 (dream) and Diane's appt (reality)?

Just an observation, for those who think it's a doctored pilot and therefore this amount of info about the reality section (filmed over a year later) can't have been included. But stop a moment... the total amount of information here is what, exactly?
- No. 16 is significant
- No. 16 has a light on
- No. 16 has a POV shot.
Now I think Lynch may have been clever here (go with me on this folks), and set up those three things as open ends to build stuff on later. And then you know what, he built stuff on it later!

(Don't forget that 1612 Havenhurst also introduces the idea that 16 is important and sits with 12).

1. We see an 'Aunt Ruth' shortly before your picture 1, IIRC. Any relevance?

Yes. I think people who wear scarves are magicians like the magician in club silencio. It is not integral to my analysis of the movie, but I rather like the idea that the first aunt ruth had a body in the big suitcase, and the third aunt ruth dropped it off at sierra bonita right before betty and rita got there. Aunt Ruths are The Magician's set decorators.

3. Time management. Sounds convincing in as far as POV is no. 16 not no.17.

This is where I start to get lost. Yes, I know there wasn't enough time in between the tracking shot and the POV shot but we all have to have a threshold where we decide for ourselves how meticulous Lynch is. And that crosses my threshold because as I noted above, when Lynch wants to create a POV moment it is more deliberate. I basically believe, in the language of cinema, you can lose 5 seconds while a character walks an extra 30 feet in between shots. We don't need to see LJ walk that extra 30 feet, and the fact that it's missing doesn't mean anything. Sorry.

PS. Before someone can knock on a door that is covered by a screen-door, one needs to open that screen-door of course. The pivots of that screen-door are at the left. Is it unlikely to assume that the woman of #12 clinched/clamped that screen-door, which makes that screen-door out of focus when Diane opens her front-door?

Ok, here's the screenshots. This door:





Is not this door: