I'm going to take a different approach here and try it in a different way.

Here's the audio stripped out of from Dan and Herb heading round the back of Winkie's. Have a listen. Get some headphones, turn them up loud. Forget about the visuals that you know are attached to it. Maybe close your eyes and really listen.

[bbvideo]t[/bbvideo]

Anything odd?

Any ideas or thoughts?

I'll be back later this evening to chime in with my thoughts, but I just wondered if anyone has similar thoughts to me and I don't want to lend an element of bias to the proceedings.

Ha! I love it!

Without giving anything away (hopefully), this ties into something I was thinking about this morning regarding the red curtains at Silencio.

Maybe there wasn't a blue light shone onto the curtains. Maybe their true color was being revealed when the illusion was removed.

In order of things I noticed:

Dan says something like 'It's around the camera' which is significantly different from what I thought was there. On memory alone (no subtitles) I thought it was something like 'It's around there" or 'It's around the corner. Now, upon checking it - no way do his lips sync to any of the above but 'it's around the camera' is as close as I can make it out.

As they move along I hear something like a high pitched sound effect or voice. Weird sounding and I can't make it out even on headphones.

Lot of tapping going on sort of like a pencil tapping on the back of a cockroach as the cockroach scrapes along the cement ground (sorry about that). Then more tapping and scraping sounds.

The decrescendo is a very nice touch before the blast of sound. It's almost in are DNA to tighten up upon a crescendo but the other way around is probably very effective to put us at ease before the big blast of sound with the bum reveal.

I hear Herb saying "Dan! Dan-Dan-Dan (rapid fire-like, then) Dan are you alright? Dan? Dan? (All muffled and with reverb/echo).

About a full 4 seconds after the last "Dan" I hear the words "Good Job"

Is that Lynch's way of getting his sound editor/engineer into the soundtrack?

At the very end I hear what could be voices but they sure aren't saying anything I can make out and I'm not even sure they are voices.

I just listened to it again on my PC, which has better quality sound than my TV. I think, for a brief second, I heard a child's giggle. And I think I heard waves crashing a beach.

marksman wrote:I have edited this now because I have wrongly been misled by the subtitles, which have Herb saying "Steve, Steve."
After reading the next post I tried listening again, and it does seem to be "Dan" that Herb is saying. I am sorry for causing any confusion.

Be wary of the subtitles, dude. I spent ages trying to convince someone that the director Bob Brooker is actually called Bob Booker because that's what the subtitles said on my DVD. In the case of another (foreign) film the subtitler got lazy and subbed a scene showed twice differently the second time leading me to believe there were inconsistencies between the two scenes when actually the French spoken was exactly the same in both versions.

It's easily done. No apologies required.

Film Syncs wrote:In order of things I noticed:

1. Dan says something like 'It's around the camera' which is significantly different from what I thought was there. On memory alone (no subtitles) I thought it was something like 'It's around there" or 'It's around the corner. Now, upon checking it - no way do his lips sync to any of the above but 'it's around the camera' is as close as I can make it out.

2. As they move along I hear something like a high pitched sound effect or voice. Weird sounding and I can't make it out even on headphones.

3. Lot of tapping going on sort of like a pencil tapping on the back of a cockroach as the cockroach scrapes along the cement ground (sorry about that). Then more tapping and scraping sounds.

4. The decrescendo is a very nice touch before the blast of sound. It's almost in are DNA to tighten up upon a crescendo but the other way around is probably very effective to put us at ease before the big blast of sound with the bum reveal.

5. I hear Herb saying "Dan! Dan-Dan-Dan (rapid fire-like, then) Dan are you alright? Dan? Dan? (All muffled and with reverb/echo).

6. About a full 4 seconds after the last "Dan" I hear the words "Good Job"

Is that Lynch's way of getting his sound editor/engineer into the soundtrack?

7. At the very end I hear what could be voices but they sure aren't saying anything I can make out and I'm not even sure they are voices.

Film Syncs, I have taken the liberty of numbering up your observations so I can discuss them. I trust that is ok!

#1 is weird, isn't it? I almost hear "It's round the counter" or "it's a wrap [inaudible]". I think Lynch is being a bit tricky here, but I have no idea why. His lips don't quote seem to sync to the words we hear; they continue to move after the voice has finished and it seems dubbed in, but to what end?

#2 I think these are possibly synthesised versions of someone saying "Dan" ran through some audio effect gubbins, perhaps just a foreshadowing of Herb to Dan very shortly.

#3 These sounds are really unusual and I can't for the life of me work out what they are other than maybe Lynch and John Neff messing around and banging and scraping in the studio. Maybe just for atmosphere and mood. When I was listening to these noises I also noticed that we don't hear any footsteps right up to the point before the Bum pops out.

#4 and #5 I'll come back to.

#6 I didn't notice that at first, but it's definitely there. Good ears!

#7 Agree just sounds like a bit of a mush.

The main observation that I was going to make is something that marksman alluded to before he edited his post, and something that I think vicster has also possibly picked up on. I really don't know what this means or whether it has any relevance at all, but the crescendo after the Bum pops out and the following muffled sounds really do to me sound like we've been submerged in water.

The main crescendo sounds like someone landing or falling and splashing into water and the subsequent bassy scuffly sounds like the swirling of water and the reverb and echo makes the dialogue sound muffled by water. It could just be Lynch and Neff twiddling knobs until we have an effect by chance that's very similar, because to be honest, I don't have many water connections to make.

Adam's pool. The Gillis character being in the pool in Sunset Blvd - quite a leap; if he was called Dan and someone was pulling him out of it, maybe, but as it is not really connected enough.

The bit that vicster I think was alluding to was Silencio when it turns blue and seeming like it's underwater, beneath the sea, like an aquarium of kinds the way that the blue light ripples around the theatre.

But to be honest, this is speculation. Nothing to hang my hat on, so to speak ...

Am interested if people can hear it like I can (why I chose not to say up front).

Yes, right away I got a connection to hearing "Dan..." from under water, to the pool at the party (I'm not quite convinced it's Adam's house) and to the 'underwater' effect at Club Silencio. That wierd noise we hear at the end of Diane's shaking (at C.S.) now appears to also sound as if being heard from under water.

To me, you can hear footsteps mixed in with that weird clicking noise. They're just being echoed. Like you would hear around a pool if it had a security/privacy fence and the air was thick (we see fog in the air when the huge dude shows up at the house looking for Adam). Or you're hearing them from under water.

And I swear I heard a child giggle for a split second. At first I thought it was a seagull, but the second time I heard a child.

Anyone notice that Dan, right before he says "That's it", sniffs as if he's crying? But he's not.

Another thing. I think Dan is saying "It's around the back". But when I had this turned way up on the TV, I could swear it wasn't his voice. It sounded more like the Woman in 12's...or maybe even Diane's.

blu wrote:#3 These sounds are really unusual and I can't for the life of me work out what they are other than maybe Lynch and John Neff messing around and banging and scraping in the studio. Maybe just for atmosphere and mood. When I was listening to these noises I also noticed that we don't hear any footsteps right up to the point before the Bum pops out.

Nice observation about the footsteps being missing until they are close to the bum! I'll build on that a bit to suggest that there are not two sets of footsteps, but one. That gives me an idea for another thread.

I do understand the ocean vibe. But, car moving along concrete (more than asphalt) do have that kind of vibe already. So, as you put it, with a few twists of the knobs we might be just jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

I wouldn't suggest this otherwise, but by not putting in footsteps is there a chance that Lynch is getting crafty? In other words, it makes me wonder why there are no footsteps for a while. It also seems peculiar that he has so many tapping sounds in the segment without the footsteps. Is that a 'tell' of some type? That he doesn't want to mask the taps with footsteps? Is there a chance that those tapping sounds are Morse code? The downside of even that idea or suggestion is that the taps are pretty indistinct. If it were not Lynch I wouldn't even offer this up as a possibility. Even then, would Lynch do morse code to tapping sounds that are so indistinct?

vicster111 wrote:And I swear I heard a child giggle for a split second. At first I thought it was a seagull, but the second time I heard a child.

Certainly it is high pitched, so a child giggle or even a seagull can't be discounted. Lynch has been trained from early on to sample sounds and then make them into other sounds so ... who knows?

Is there a chance that those tapping sounds are Morse code?

This is too weird. A few months ago there was something I came across that had me looking at morse code. It was the number Roque dialed. The number he dials is made up of ones and zeros. I wondered if it was morse code or 'code speak' (computer programming).

This brings me to something else. In my 'fun' thread I mention an invisible key. I am referring to a code. A code you punch (into a keypad) to enter a secure place.

If you take a closer look at the scene with Dan and Herb talking, you get to see some wonderful camera work on Lynch's part. You feel like you're floating as you watch it.

I think this camera work is a signal to us from Lynch that someone in this scene is dreaming. The fact that the camera movement is so dramatic here is what leads me to believe that the dreamer is part of the scene. (You will notice similar camera movement in other scenes, but it is exaggerated here.) I believe the dreamer is Dan.

The bum popping from behind the wall and scaring him to death wakes Dan up. Dan just suffered a nightmare. That is why Herb sounds muffled as he cries "Dan...", Lynch is showing us how it would sound to Dan as he wakes. Heart pounding in his ears.

Is Dan playing a scene? Is he doing it over and over until it's right?

He says that Herb is standing by that counter. What's the definition of a counter? One definition is 'a piece of furniture on which transactions are handled'. Another definition is 'something that counts the number of times a certain event has happened'.

He also said that everything was the same except for the light.

So.....

"Winkie's Dream - Take one"
[they do the scene]
"cut"
"The lighting's off. Can you move that light up about 2 feet?"
"Winkie's Dream - Take two"
[they do the scene]

vicster111 wrote:Is Dan playing a scene? Is he doing it over and over until it's right?

He says that Herb is standing by that counter. What's the definition of a counter? One definition is 'a piece of furniture on which transactions are handled'. Another definition is 'something that counts the number of times a certain event has happened'.

He also said that everything was the same except for the light.

So.....

"Winkie's Dream - Take one"
[they do the scene]
"cut"
"The lighting's off. Can you move that light up about 2 feet?"
"Winkie's Dream - Take two"
[they do the scene]

I think that Lynch definitely gets off on word play, so your continuing investigations in that field will not be in vain I would hazard.

For the record, I'm not done with this thread yet, and intend to come back with some of the visual aspects of the scene when I have some time to study properly. Picked a couple of things up that I want to think about further for sure.

Something I've always wondered about this scene is whether Herb sees the bum as well. Dan clearly reacts first (possibly just because he's expecting it):





Even before Herb appears startled, you can see his arm start to move up toward Dan during Dan's initial reaction, so he is reacting quickly to something. But it seems strange that he'd become that cartoonishly horrified just because Dan was freaking out.

So does Herb see it too and react more slowly? Or is his only a reaction to Dan's reaction -- worrying about his mental health, and/or being "frightened when I see how afraid you are"?

"frightened when I see how afraid you are"

So when Dan says "I get even more frightened when I see how afraid you are" does he see this scene from Herb's POV in his dream? And this would mean that the wrong person went to the counter. Somehow the roles got switched.

I find it endlessly interesting to switch the roles back and forth, particularly if, as was discussed in another thread, Dan is imaginary. If Herb is the only one here, then he's projecting his fears onto his imaginary friend Dan (allowing himself to be the rational, calm one) and Dan becomes even more scared because his imaginer is. But then in Dan's dream, Dan is projecting his own fears onto an imaginary version of Herb. But what if this scene is just Dan's third dream? After all, we don't see Herb in the second part of the movie.

Could the act of projection itself be included in what is projected? At the risk of being ridiculous, I would love to call this a case of infinite recursion: one man projects onto the other his fear, as well the fact that he projects onto the other his fear, as well as the fact that he projects...etc. In this case, since one's fear makes the other more frightened, perhaps the fear could be seen as amplifying back and forth, back and forth, building and building until it finally kills Dan.

vicster111 wrote:"frightened when I see how afraid you are"

So when Dan says "I get even more frightened when I see how afraid you are" does he see this scene from Herb's POV in his dream? And this would mean that the wrong person went to the counter. Somehow the roles got switched.

That's an interesting idea vicster. Or could Dan be Herb's alter-ego.

Marksman,

I like your new avatar. Classy.