Club Silencio

Sorry, post I was referring to is here. The whole thread actually I think ties in with a lot of what you are saying.

outofthewoods wrote:…the "vision" changes from Camilla to herself.
...
Therefore, is it not true that, for this moment in time, there are two Diane's standing in the kitchen, looking right at each other?

Yes, Diane’s self is fragmenting. She is experiencing multiple, conflicting versions of ‘reality’. Note that we never see both Diane’s at once.

outofthewoods wrote:The scene is shot in a way that leads us to believe that Camilla is a hallucination that Diane is experiencing.
...
But this would mean that, when the vision of Camilla changes to Diane, this second Diane should also be a hallucination, right?

Right, or maybe the first Diane was the less real one?

How do we know Camilla is a hallucination? You’re prepared to accept the second Diane as real (a great proposition by the way), so why not Camilla?

Apart from the incongruousness of Camilla appearing in that kitchen, Lynch shows us that Camilla is a figment of Diane because a moment later she becomes Diane. Camilla changes into Diane revealing she IS Diane, or at least a part of her i.e. a persona of Diane, a construct.

(Or Diane and Camilla unify and become one, less deluded, Diane, incidentally a recap of what happened when the blue box was opened).

As Diane realises this, the hallucination of Camilla collapses, leaving the second Diane, a Diane that recognises the hallucination for what it is. The fantasy is over and she knows it - Diane looks back on her deluded self with disdain. I think it’s very important that Diane is realising what is happening to her. She can’t hold onto reality or fantasy anymore (with thanks to erniesam).

outofthewoods wrote:Well... this so-called hallucination of Diane is the one who turns and starts making coffee. So then what happened to the original Diane? The one who was standing in front of the sink, the one who exclaimed "Camilla!" She somehow disappears, and the second Diane takes over.

Which Diane is more real – the one that sees ghosts in her kitchen or the one that sees that she’s seeing ghosts in the kitchen?

outofthewoods wrote:Once I realized this, it was like a revelation. I can no longer see this scene the same anymore. There is a "switch" that takes place.

Yes! Something unreal has happened, literally a moment of madness that breaks both Diane’s psyche and cinematic convention. At that moment in the kitchen, Diane has had a psychotic episode, losing her grip on reality so that, for a moment, she both believes and witnesses her own fantasies. This moment of unreality is represented by the cinematic technique 'crossing the line', and what you have identified, the physical displacement of, apparently, two Dianes regarding each other (à la 2001).

outofthewoods wrote:So the question remains... what does this mean?

Good question. At the very least it means she is an untrustworthy narrator.

More importantly what does it mean about the next moment when the same hyper-real Camilla reappears on the sofa? The conventional interpretation is that this is flashback. But as we have observed, the things on screen are presentations of Diane’s view OF HERSELF as she gazes into the broken mirror of her mind.

I don’t think the sofa, or the dinner party, or the hitman are ‘real’. Or at least not completely. And this where we leave all the conventional critics, Alan Shaw, etc, behind. They get as far ‘its all a dream’, and are satisfied they’ve understood the film. But there’s clearly another layer, another ‘reveal’ if you like. I think the neighbour coming to pick up the lamp is real. I think Diane sitting on the sofa is real, beyond that I’m not so sure.

Have you chewed over this thread?

Note that we never see both Diane’s at once.

Indeed, and it's the same in 2001. This is achieved by filming the "second version" as if through the POV of the first. Yet, in both films, the two versions make it clear that they can see and acknowledge each other, even though the first disappears and causes us to question what we're seeing and whether or not it was indeed a POV shot.
And speaking of POV shots, this might be minor but I find it interesting... You may have heard of the technique Lynch and the cameramen came up with that they call "Floaty cam" or something like that. It refers to, for example, the scene with Dan and Herb inside Wikies, if you notice the camera, it's in a constant state of slow movement, sort of like a POV shot. It constantly moves slowly in small circular motions (some say a figure 8 motion, like the infinity symbol we see on the ground in front of Club Silencio) instead of staying still. It's used many times in the film. Is this intended to make us feel like they're POV shots instead of objective camera shots? Furthermore, when Dan and Herb go outside, sometimes the walk is shown as if through Dan's eyes (POV shots), but as the POV passes the payphone, the camera turns toward the phone as it walks by. It cuts while still on the payphone, but Dan is looking straight ahead, with the payphone right next to him. In other words, the POV shot does not match Dan's POV. Is it someone elses? Who's POV are we seeing through the second time we travel to the back of Winkies @ night (after the hitman laughs at Diane)?

How do we know Camilla is a hallucination? You’re prepared to accept the second Diane as real (a great proposition by the way), so why not Camilla?

Since the second Diane replaces both Camilla and the original Diane, it's impossible to say what is real or not real. Or, perhaps, it proves that nothing is real, since impossible things are happening, and continue to happen, in this so-called reality. I disagree with you that Diane sitting on the couch is real, because it's the most unreal so-called reality scene. There's the strobe-light effect from Club Silencio happening in her living room, there's the tiny old people. And as she sits on the couch, we hear the sound of her screams before we physically see her get up and start screaming. Then there's the very unreal way the suicide scene is shown. Even the way the fog pours into the room is very unrealistic, very artificial. We can practically see the fog machines themselves in our mind's eye due to the artificial way the smoke pours into the room.

This is obviously connected to the smoke when the magician disappears. It's the same effect, not just the fog itself but the way it pours out artificially. However, the connection I never see anyone make is to the scene where the bum puts the blue box in the brown paper bag. There is a fire and smoke pouring out in the background of this scene (and iirc the smoke pours out in that same artificial way).

So the smoke in the suicide scene is not only directly linked to Club Silencio, but also the bum and his fire. This is why these are the two things we see inside the smoke that fills Diane's room. The bum's face, being illuminated by the flickering flames of his fire, and also the stage of Club Silencio. Perhaps this overlaying of things inside the smoke is a reference to the Wizard of Oz, and the illusion he creates inside the smoke and flames.

It's also quite brilliant and beautiful the way that, for a small moment, the image of the Bum, the curtains/stage of Club Silencio, and the bright-white, smiling Betty with the swirling city lights behind her, all merge into one, all visible on the screen at once.

Questions in a world..... of blue.....

Have you chewed over this thread?

After reading through all 7 pages, I'm surprised no one mentioned the thing that sticks out to me about the "lamp lady."
It has to do with her mentioning the detectives (which also alluded to Betty and Rita snooping in the dream, but I'll get that that later).
If we go with the logical approach, it would seem that LL is covering for Diane. She agreed to swap apartments with Diane to assist Diane in evading the detectives. If this is true, it is very hard evidence to support the idea that Diane and LL have a much deeper history than we think, because it means that LL is breaking the law and making herself an accomplice in a crime... Which implies she cares a great deal for her despite the estranged regard they have for one another in the scene. The fact Diane has so many of her things only reinforces this notion.

Going back to LL's mentioning the detectives alluding to B&R, there's another interesting detail. That really sexy red spaghetti string top that Camilla is wearing in the so-called hallucination in the kitchen, and also wearing when Diane slams the front door shut in Camilla's face... Rita is wearing the very same top under her black cardigan when "investigates" Sierra Bonita.

outofthewoods wrote:Since the second Diane replaces both Camilla and the original Diane, it's impossible to say what is real or not real... Or, perhaps, it proves that nothing is real, since impossible things are happening, and continue to happen, in this so-called reality.

C'mon it's not THAT bad, I wouldn't give up all hope. We see Diane from the left then from the right, there's a jump in time and space and we cross the line - glitches in the cinematic language that accompany and demonstrate our protagonist's psychotic lapse. It is an avant garde film after all.

outofthewoods wrote:I disagree with you that Diane sitting on the couch is real, because it's the most unreal so-called reality scene. There's the strobe-light effect from Club Silencio happening in her living room, there's the tiny old people...

No I quite agree. I said sitting on the couch with a coffee is real, I didn't say the tiny old people or even the suicide is real. As to the post suicide stuff, the connections you make seem valid, but I'm not sure what to make of it. How do you interpret them in the context of the story?

outofthewoods wrote:I'm surprised no one mentioned... that LL is covering for Diane.

Yeah that's interesting. But it assumes that they swapped to cover Diane's tracks, i.e. after the hit. So how does that fit with the couch scene that takes place with Diane already in no. 17, and Camilla still alive?
As blu pointed out:

blu wrote:If we can trust what the Lamp Lady says, and we think it may have been 3 weeks since she saw Diane, does that mean that the detectives have been looking for her for longer than 3 weeks? If so, has that blue key been sat on her coffee table longer than 3 weeks? If so, has it really taken Diane 3 weeks of masturbating on the couch contemplating suicide for her to actually follow through with it? etc etc etc

Anyway, the point of that thread was that there is no Camilla, in which case there is no hit, no detectives and no covering for Diane.

blu wrote:If we can trust what the Lamp Lady says, and we think it may have been 3 weeks since she saw Diane, does that mean that the detectives have been looking for her for longer than 3 weeks? If so, has that blue key been sat on her coffee table longer than 3 weeks? If so, has it really taken Diane 3 weeks of masturbating on the couch contemplating suicide for her to actually follow through with it? etc etc etc

Just a thought, it could be three weeks since the break up, and, say, 2 weeks since placing the hit, making it 1 week, or even just a few days since the murder.

Now where's that timeline...

It's an interesting observation. IMO, it's just Lynch's way of showing you that the Camilla we see throughout most of the film is actually Diane's creation. That's why she is replaced by Diane. Basically, Camilla is simply Diane because Diane created her in her dream. In reality, Camilla is a real person, but she is a different Camilla in the dream.

The trembling and terrified Diane in that scene is just how Diane sees herself.

Dear Siku, the scene in the kitchen when Diane looks at and cries over Camilla - Thank you so very much for picking out the subtle shift, the change in location of where Diane is standing. It is a pivotal scene. The Cowboy has just told Diane "Time to wake up pretty girl". He is not rousing her from sleep, but he (the Conscious Ego) is asking her to wake up and look at what she has become. She has changed from the innocent, naive Betty who wanted to be "a great actress and not just a movie star" - she has become Camilla, the sultry, sexy, devious movie star. Betty/Camilla are two aspects of Aunt Ruth's inner psyche. They are persona of Aunt Ruth's personality. We are watching a film that describes the decline of Aunt Ruth from idealistic Betty to compromised Camilla. Aunt Ruth sold her soul to Hollywood. MD is about Aunt Ruth's struggle to maintain her integrity as an actress, only to finally relinquish, as Camilla, to the Hollywood machine. The look of horror that comes over Diane as she contemplates Camilla is because she finally realizes that Camilla has won the struggle and that, now, Diane has become Camilla.
Camilla is now the dominant personality and we see in the ensuing love scene, Camilla tells Diane "We can't do this anymore". Camilla is declaring her independence.