In apartment #17 stands a dead plant near the front-door. So Diane does not live in #17.

In 16 there's a screen door, there's no screen door where Diane ends up.

I'm not at all convinced Diane lives in #17. It would fit much better with the numbers reflected elsewhere if she lived in #16.

For example, if Lamp Lady really lives in #12 now, and if she and Diane really switched apartments, and if Diane's current apt. is #16, then the apartment numbers (16 and 12) would mirror 1612 Havenhurst in the dream. Also, it would mean Diane goes to apt. #16 after the break-up with Camilla (and detectives are trying to find her there), just as Adam/Diane goes to hotel room #16 after the break-up with Lorraine (and bankers are trying to find him there).

The neighbor saying Diane lives in #17, and seeing the screen door on #16, both happen in the dream. In the "reality" section, nothing indicates Diane's apartment number...

ok here's what I'm looking at.

Apt 16 is here and has a screen enclosure around the front door.



Apt 17 is here and does not have a screen enclosure outside the front door.




See the problem there.

The first picture is from the dream. The second picture is from reality. We have no idea whether #16 has a screen door in reality or not. We never see apartment 16 in reality (nor do we ever see the apartment number of Diane's apartment in reality, and no one in the reality section mentions her apartment number).

but that's the big problem with the dream. you can pick and choose from the dream what is real and what is not.

I have all these discussion with people. They say "Diane dreamed it," what they really mean is "That's what I want it to mean so it fits my theory. and that's why diane dreamed it."

the bottom line is there's a screen enclosure around number 16 and there isn't around 17. if that is just a quirk of dreams, then as far as i'm concerned, lamp lady is in 1, the enclosed screen apt is in 1879, and diane is in -19, and everything else is just is made up dream stuff.

bottom line is, if it's all a dream, then why can't sierra bonita just be rooms at the disneyland hotel?

kmkmiller wrote:the bottom line is there's a screen enclosure around number 16 and there isn't around 17.

In the dream.

kmkmiller wrote:if that is just a quirk of dreams, then as far as i'm concerned, lamp lady is in 1, the enclosed screen apt is in 1879, and diane is in -19, and everything else is just is made up dream stuff.

Except that I didn't just grab some random numbers. If Diane's real apt. number is 16, that actually makes some elements in the dream section fit better. If Diane's really in apt. 16, it would:

• Give significance to the address 1612 Havenhurst in the dream, by making it a reflection of her current and previous apt. numbers.
• Give significance to why dream-Adam (who seems to be one of Diane's dream doppelgangers) stays in room #16 at the Park Hotel.
• Make another 16 connection via the song Sixteen Reasons Why I Love You.
• Explain why Betty and Rita in the dream seem to pay special notice to apt. 16 as they pass by it.

kmkmiller wrote:bottom line is, if it's all a dream, then why can't sierra bonita just be rooms at the disneyland hotel?

They could. But then you'd presumably need to explain how that would be significant...

Besides, I didn't say it was all a dream. I'm just going by what seems to be the most common interpretation of MD: that the first 2/3 or so of the movie is Diane's dream(s), and the last 1/3 or so is Diane's reality (in a mix of current time and flashbacks).

To me, "facts" known only from the "dream section" should be regarded as suspect. I'm not saying they're false; I'm saying they're indeterminate. I'm not saying Diane doesn't live in #17; I'm saying I don't think we should assume she does.


So do you think everything in the dream section should be taken at face value (or that none of the movie is a dream)? If so, what do you think happens in MD?

What I mean is you're picking and choosing what to take and what not to take at face value in the dream.

Why can't I do that too, and I choose the screen surrounding apt 16 as an indication that Diane is not in 16 when she opens a door and there is no screen enclosure.


here is some logic behind what I think, 1612 Havenhurst is a DREAMPLACE. so if there is a connection between 16 12 havenhurst and apts 16 and 12 in Sierra Bonita, then Diane would not be in 16 after her dreamplace ends, she would be in 17 which turns out to be a NIGHTMARE place.

So there is some logic behind what I'm saying too. Some dream logic. see what I mean?

Now there is another apt 16 in the movie, and the guy who played Cookie tells a story about how David Lynch painted the 6 next to the 1 on the door because the numbers add up to 7 and 7 is a very important number for Lynch.

In this room Adam meets a guy in a nice crisp white t-shirt, and a big white mustache who speaks to him in very familiar spanish or portuguese idiom, there is a religious picture on the wall, and he gets a phone call there from a black haired red lipsticked girl with gold rings on all her fingers who says she can stay at her place. he calls her a doggie.

derekfnord wrote:To me, "facts" known only from the "dream section" should be regarded as suspect. I'm not saying they're false; I'm saying they're indeterminate.

kmkmiller wrote:What I mean is you're picking and choosing what to take and what not to take at face value in the dream.

Except that I'm not. I just got done saying that facts known only from the dream section should be regarded as suspect. I don't take anything from the dream at face value.

kmkmiller wrote:Why can't I do that too, and I choose the screen surrounding apt 16 as an indication that Diane is not in 16 when she opens a door and there is no screen enclosure.

Okay. You've pointed out your reason for rejecting my suggestion it might be 16, and I've explained why I think it could be 16 anyway. So we disagree. No worries.

kmkmiller wrote:here is some logic behind what I think, 1612 Havenhurst is a DREAMPLACE. so if there is a connection between 16 12 havenhurst and apts 16 and 12 in Sierra Bonita, then Diane would not be in 16 after her dreamplace ends, she would be in 17 which turns out to be a NIGHTMARE place.

So there is some logic behind what I'm saying too. Some dream logic. see what I mean?

Absolutely. Not only is there not one-and-only-one way to interpret things, but also things can be interpreted in multiple ways that seem valid (because Lynch's brilliant film sets it up that way). Which is the most valid is often just a matter of opinion, or even taste.

kmkmiller wrote:Now there is another apt 16 in the movie, and the guy who played Cookie tells a story about how David Lynch painted the 6 next to the 1 on the door because the numbers add up to 7 and 7 is a very important number for Lynch.

In this room Adam meets a guy in a nice crisp white t-shirt, and a big white mustache who speaks to him in very familiar spanish or portuguese idiom, there is a religious picture on the wall, and he gets a phone call there from a black haired red lipsticked girl with gold rings on all her fingers who says she can stay at her place. he calls her a doggie.

Well, yes. I specifically mentioned it above as a reason why I think the real apartment might be 16, and one of the ways it might be reflected in the dream is in Adam's room at the Park Hotel.

Well, yes. I specifically mentioned it above as a reason why I think the real apartment might be 16, and one of the ways it might be reflected in the dream is in Adam's room at the Park Hotel.

Right, but one is a safe place where Adam can stay before he learns how to ride along in the buggy.

The other is a not so safe place where little old people can creep in under the door and scare you to death.

Trust me, apt 17 is not a place you want to be.

I always love symmetry, and one of the most beautiful forms in Mulholland Dr is shown in Joe's killing event, which reflects (mirrors) Diane's anxiety about his possible flawed murder plan in apartment #17 of Sierra Bonita's.

First of all Lynch seemed to be inspired by the real life murder case called Four On The Floor, aka The Wunderland Murders (John Holmes c.s.). Lynch took elements from that murder and spread them over scenes in both Diane's dream and Diane's memory.

1. Dream. Diane seemed intensely worried about Joe's skills. That's my guess why she casts Joe into a situation of failing to kill Ed according his plan. This plan was to rob the black book and to orchestrate the crime scene into Ed's suicide. He failed (just like in the Four On The Floor case, where a bullet went off by accident). The bullet that passed through his brain and heated a hair-piece as if a hair-styler created a miraculous "pointer". This pointer points to the adjacent room, where a fat lady resides in an office called "Health + Plus Enzymes". The name of the actress playing this fat lady is "Diane".

2. Later in the dream, Betty and Rita are on their way of discovering the 'real identity' of Diane Selwyn, who moved to apartment #17 (according the dream version of the neighbor in #12, she and Diane swapped places). As they approach #17 Rita touched a flower with the beautiful name 'Bird of Paradise', which started nodding like a head on a neck telling the audience that this is the real place where Diane lived: apartment number sixteen.

nobody knows what you're talking about Xav.

That's okay then. I did my best though. Please ignore me. I wasn't here.

kmkmiller wrote:nobody knows what you're talking about Xav.

Speak for yourself. I know exactly what Xav is talking about, and I think they're points well-made.