Setting aside for a moment that most people believe that the first part of the film is Diane's dream, and that as a consequence we can sweep aside any logical incongruities, what do people feel is the connection between Mr. Roque and the Castigliane bros? And by extension maybe Joe Messing and his chum Ed?

Seems to me that most people tend to connect Roque and the bros. as working towards similar aims. On the Mr. Roque page on the site, we have the following quote:

Mr Roque, the Castigliane Brothers, and their agent The Cowboy are the power brokers who own the film that Adam is making. Roque is the top man, working entirely behind the scenes, exerting his power through the Castiglianes and others by insisting on having the girl he wants in the lead role. It is important to note that he has absolutely no cultural or creative interest in the film at all, but is simply exerting his power for the sake of it. He doesn't even know the name of the girl he is forcing on Adam Kesher and has to be told.

So I suppose that the untold story here is that Mr. Roque and the Castiglianes were trying to get the 'Rita' character out of the picture (presuming she is Kesher's choice) and force his hand to cast Blonde Camllla Rhodes in TSNS. Remember he is "recasting the lead actress anyway". Perhaps Adam has casting decisions etc written into his contract and for that reason they couldn't just force him to ditch Rita and hire Blonde Camilla for the part, so they try to get rid of her.

But that doesn't quite make sense, because although you could say that Adam is strong-armed into casting Blonde Camilla, equally why don't they strong-arm him into firing Rita too? Why would they have to remove her in the more permanent sense?

Doesn't quite add up for me.

What I think is more feasible is that we have the studio director/mogul (Mr. Roque) who above everything else wants to keep his hotshot young director on the film, and the Castiglianes who above all else are keen to give their young blonde the part in the film that they are maybe helping to finance.

In this reading we would have the two parties somewhat working against each other with the brothers happy to remove Adam from the film to get their girl cast, and Mr. Roque prepared to play the waiting game and shut down production and hope that Adam comes to his senses and agree to cast the girl rather than losing him entirely from the film.

This seems to make more sense to me.

And then what consequences does that have for the roles of Joe, Ed, and of course our friend The Cowboy? Is The Cowboy working for Roque, or the brothers? And if we connect Ed to the Castiglianes through the Italy connection of the Spaghetti and Meatballs poster in his office, does that mean Joe is doing the bidding of Mr. Roque (trying to find Rita to bring her back into the picture) and that the black book has something that will help him to do that?

Interested in thoughts on how these relationships and connections work in your mind.

blu wrote:What I think is more feasible is that we have the studio director/mogul (Mr. Roque) who above everything else wants to keep his hotshot young director on the film, and the Castiglianes who above all else are keen to give their young blonde the part in the film that they are maybe helping to finance.

In this reading we would have the two parties somewhat working against each other with the brothers happy to remove Adam from the film to get their girl cast, and Mr. Roque prepared to play the waiting game and shut down production and hope that Adam comes to his senses and agree to cast the girl rather than losing him entirely from the film.

This seems to make more sense to me.

In the above, are you taking the standpoint that these story elements do not occur within a dream?

Well, I guess it's more that I would like to be able to apply some amount of what we might consider normal logic in the actions and motivations of characters despite the fact that what we are watching may be taking place inside of a dream. That was the reason for my disclaimer, really; I would like to be able to consider the story around the recasting of the actress in TSNS in some kind of framework where we don't just write inconsistencies off as being 'dream logic'.

Does that make sense?

I think a power struggle behind the casting of that actress vs the desire not to lose the director makes for an interesting backdrop, and going on from that, yes, it may have implications for the way we view how Camilla got cast in Bob Brooker's version of TSNS.

Mr Roque, the Castigliane Brothers, and their agent The Cowboy are the power brokers who own the film that Adam is making.

To me, this statement presumes that all of these people are on the 'same team'. What if they are not, and that is why Mr. Roque is unaware of her name?

Maybe the Castigliane brothers and the Cowboy represent us, the movie viewers. It has always been believed that 'blondes have more fun'. A pretty blonde (we hear Ray call her 'very pretty') whose acting is so-so is more appealing to the general public than a so-so looking gal who can actually act.

With this in mind, maybe Adam represents the artist, the Castigliane brothers (and the Cowboy) represent the general public's preference and Mr. Roque (along with Ray and Mr. Darby) represent the force that brings the two elements together through compromise.

blu wrote:Well, I guess it's more that I would like to be able to apply some amount of what we might consider normal logic in the actions and motivations of characters despite the fact that what we are watching may be taking place inside of a dream. That was the reason for my disclaimer, really; I would like to be able to consider the story around the recasting of the actress in TSNS in some kind of framework where we don't just write inconsistencies off as being 'dream logic'.

Does that make sense?

It's a nice idea. However, the premise that a story should reflect some 'normal logic' where inconsistencies are not just written off is contrary to my own dreams.

But, let's put that aside and just go with your premise.

I think a power struggle behind the casting of that actress vs the desire not to lose the director makes for an interesting backdrop, and going on from that, yes, it may have implications for the way we view how Camilla got cast in Bob Brooker's version of TSNS.

Yes, but it violates your idea for 'normal logic.' Shutting down production on a film 'in reality' frees up those under contract to seek other work. Thus, shutting down production on the TSNS would have the absolute opposite effect of what you assume Mr. Roque wants i.e. keeping Adam on the project. The only thing that binds a filmmaker to a studio or vice-versa is a positive working relationship and result. The reality is that if the studio were to shut down a filmmaker's project, the chance of him wanting to work there again are not good. Thirdly, it's at odds with what the Castigliane Brothers want as having a film dead in the water hurts them in the pocket and does not get 'the girl' into the role. It seems like the whole premise of shutting down production is a lose/lose.

Now, threatening to shut down production as a ploy to get a needed compromise ... that's a horse of a different color.

vicster111 wrote:With this in mind, maybe Adam represents the artist, the Castigliane brothers (and the Cowboy) represent the general public's preference and Mr. Roque (along with Ray and Mr. Darby) represent the force that brings the two elements together through compromise.

Funny, I'm just seeing your post as I'm posting myself.

Cowboy wrote:It's a nice idea. However, the premise that a story should reflect some 'normal logic' where inconsistencies are not just written off is contrary to my own dreams.

But, let's put that aside and just go with your premise.

Ah yes, but this is not your dream, just as it is not mine. This is David Lynch using the language of a film dream to help him tell a story. That is not to say that there are not and cannot be inconsistencies in it, but how many times have you had a dream where people from your everyday life have popped up mostly with different names and identities and you have even failed to recognise their faces, never mind anything else?

I don't think we can call this a 'dream' as we would know it. It's a version of a dream that is unique to the story whilst remaining fitting with the way that dreams have been used in film in the past.

There doesn't seem to be a set of hard and fast rules within this dream.

That's an interesting discussion, but maybe for another thread?

Shutting down production on a film 'in reality' frees up those under contract to seek other work. Thus, shutting down production on the TSNS would have the absolute opposite effect of what you assume Mr. Roque wants i.e. keeping Adam on the project. The only thing that binds a filmmaker to a studio or vice-versa is a positive working relationship and result. The reality is that if the studio were to shut down a filmmaker's project, the chance of him wanting to work there again are not good. Thirdly, it's at odds with what the Castigliane Brothers want as having a film dead in the water hurts them in the pocket and does not get 'the girl' into the role. It seems like the whole premise of shutting down production is a lose/lose.

Now, threatening to shut down production as a ploy to get a needed compromise ... that's a horse of a different color.

Good point and I agree. I do think the intention is some kind of bluff, or at least a temporary closure whilst things are worked out. As you say, it benefits no one to can the whole thing and maybe Mr. Roque is playing a dangerous game, but it ends up working out ok except for maybe Adam's loss of a little integrity.

There's the whole closing down of Adam's credit too. I haven't quite thought where that might fit.

Funny, I'm just seeing your post as I'm posting myself.

The board software will show you any new posts made whilst you were typing in case it affects what you want to say I think. A nice function.

vicster111 wrote:

Mr Roque, the Castigliane Brothers, and their agent The Cowboy are the power brokers who own the film that Adam is making.

To me, this statement presumes that all of these people are on the 'same team'. What if they are not, and that is why Mr. Roque is unaware of her name?

Precisely my point, and while my quote from the site is an arguable and common viewpoint, it doesn't quite sit right with me.

vicster111 wrote:Maybe the Castigliane brothers and the Cowboy represent us, the movie viewers. It has always been believed that 'blondes have more fun'. A pretty blonde (we hear Ray call her 'very pretty') whose acting is so-so is more appealing to the general public than a so-so looking gal who can actually act.

With this in mind, maybe Adam represents the artist, the Castigliane brothers (and the Cowboy) represent the general public's preference and Mr. Roque (along with Ray and Mr. Darby) represent the force that brings the two elements together through compromise.

I think that's quite a neat abstract way of looking at things.

blu wrote:

Cowboy wrote:It's a nice idea. However, the premise that a story should reflect some 'normal logic' where inconsistencies are not just written off is contrary to my own dreams.

But, let's put that aside and just go with your premise.

Ah yes, but this is not your dream, just as it is not mine. This is David Lynch using the language of a film dream to help him tell a story. That is not to say that there are not and cannot be inconsistencies in it, but how many times have you had a dream where people from your everyday life have popped up mostly with different names and identities and you have even failed to recognise their faces, never mind anything else?

I don't think we can call this a 'dream' as we would know it. It's a version of a dream that is unique to the story whilst remaining fitting with the way that dreams have been used in film in the past.

There doesn't seem to be a set of hard and fast rules within this dream.

That's an interesting discussion, but maybe for another thread?

I agree to table the capital D 'Dream' issue as it is not the thread you intended. But what is the thread you intended? To take a quote from the website that is clearly about Mr. Roque as reflecting movie business reality and that concludes with:

it's not too surprising that Disney/ABC decided not to show the TV pilot of Mulholland Dr. and did not commission the series. It was too close to the bone.

and to seek a scenario where it makes more sense within a Lynchian dream? Really?

As an example, would you deconstruct The Wizard of Oz where characters within the dream element have different names than in reality or would you just accept that the dream advances the story and leave it alone? If you would leave it alone, the question becomes why deconstruct Lynch's dream and to what end?

I grant you that examining story arcs is quite valid but it still needs to fall within the framework of answering 'what is the story?' or what is the mystery? Otherwise, what is the point?

Cowboy wrote:But what is the thread you intended?

Quite straightforwardly; discussion about the roles of Mr. Roque and the C Bros as shown, what people's opinions on that is, and how we can apply what we learn or are shown about the connections between them in uncovering the parts of the overall story that may be implied but not shown explicitly.

One thing leads to another.

If we don't attempt to apply some semblance of logic to the dream then all we are left with is a series of criss-crossing images and sounds that produce some mood, but indeed, what is the point of examining that further? The quote was merely used as an example of a common view that I was disagreeing with. I haven't looked as closely at Oz as I have at MD, nor seen it anywhere near as many times, but are there character traits in the reality parts of the characters that might identify them with the roles they play in Dorothy's dream? I don't know, but it would be a valid thing to look at if you were deconstructing Oz in a similar way.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there.

Are you implying overall that the relationship between the Castglianis and Mr Roque is not worth looking at in isolation to work out if there's anything that can be taken into the bigger picture?

And assuming that's not what you are implying, and to take the thread back to its intended route, what are your views on a connection between them? Friendly or otherwise?

blu wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there.

Are you implying overall that the relationship between the Castglianis and Mr Roque is not worth looking at in isolation to work out if there's anything that can be taken into the bigger picture?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Their relationship (whatever it may be) leads to no bigger picture so who cares other than it advances the story?

Lynch is taking a MAJOR shot at Hollywood with the most brutal studio head portrayal in perhaps the history of filmmaking. He then depicts the Castigliane Brothers as ethnic-charged Italian mobster/money-men advancing the career of some piece of ass and shows some Hollywood suits as worthless flunkies. I'm guessing the original poster might not be far from the mark as I can only imagine the odd and rather nervous laughter during the studio lot screening of the pilot. The biggest laugh however has been on Lynch who has been out of Hollywood filmmaking since. Hope it was worth it David.

Cowboy wrote:

blu wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there.

Are you implying overall that the relationship between the Castglianis and Mr Roque is not worth looking at in isolation to work out if there's anything that can be taken into the bigger picture?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Their relationship (whatever it may be) leads to no bigger picture so who cares other than it advances the story?

Well okay then. That's fine if you see it like that, but I know that I have put certain things to bed in a similar manner before later going on to uncover stuff that has made me think twice. It also helps me in thinking more creatively going over what I think I already know. It's all helpful in the name of constructive discourse.

Cowboy wrote:That's exactly what I'm saying. Their relationship (whatever it may be) leads to no bigger picture so who cares other than it advances the story?

Lynch is taking a MAJOR shot at Hollywood with the most brutal studio head portrayal in perhaps the history of filmmaking. He then depicts the Castigliane Brothers as ethnic-charged Italian mobster/money-men advancing the career of some piece of ass and shows some Hollywood suits as worthless flunkies. I'm guessing the original poster might not be far from the mark as I can only imagine the odd and rather nervous laughter during the studio lot screening of the pilot. The biggest laugh however has been on Lynch who has been out of Hollywood filmmaking since. Hope it was worth it David.

I think it's possible that Lynch originally intended (when this was going to be a television series) for there to be more of a relationship between the Castiglianes and Mr. Roque that did relate to a bigger picture. In the pilot, the Castiglianes are shown coming down the staircase from Mr. Roque's office right after Jason asks if Mr. Roque if he wants them to shut everything down. It certainly gives the implication that they're playing a bigger role than they ended up having in the movie.

danieltx wrote:I think it's possible that Lynch originally intended (when this was going to be a television series) for there to be more of a relationship between the Castiglianes and Mr. Roque that did relate to a bigger picture. In the pilot, the Castiglianes are shown coming down the staircase from Mr. Roque's office right after Jason asks if Mr. Roque if he wants them to shut everything down. It certainly gives the implication that they're playing a bigger role than they ended up having in the movie.

Quite possibly and to my mind, likely. One of the things (somewhat) helpful when comparing the pilot and the feature film is not what Lynch shows but what he decided not to show. Lynch deciding not to show the Castiglianes emerging from (what can be assumed) to be Roque's office indicates that he wants to keep Roque's motives more open-ended.

blu wrote:Well okay then. That's fine if you see it like that, but I know that I have put certain things to bed in a similar manner before later going on to uncover stuff that has made me think twice. It also helps me in thinking more creatively going over what I think I already know. It's all helpful in the name of constructive discourse.

Well said. Point taken.